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Greek foreign minister Kotzias in Berlin 23.1.2016

               

 

Greek foreign minister Kotsias spoke with TAZ journalist Ulrike Herrmann during the Hellas Film Festival at the Babylon cinema in Berlin on Saturday 23 January 2016. *

                                 

 

Introduction

In the audience and even before the discussion habbd started, it could be noticed that quite a few so called orthodox Germans had come. They are hard-liners. Many of them have lived their wild dreams in Greece. One needs to think of the many who lived or still do in Crete.

Prior to his arrival at the Babylon theatre, a group belonging to a Distomo circle in Hamburg had unfolded a transparent in the foyer.

     

      Transparent says:

      Fight Fascism - everywhere; Compensation for Nazi victims - immediately!

Some observation about this group needs to be said even when not knowing them well. The word 'sofort' - αμέσως ('amesos' in Greek) - indicates a readiness to make the absolute demand that Germany redeems itself finally and immediately by paying Greece for the war crimes committed during Second World War. By implication, they call Germany to be still today a Fascist country.

When attempting to discuss this issue with them, very typically is that anyone disagreeing with their so called radical approach will be shunned as someone with whom they will not speak any further.

When I asked one of them with a very hard face if he knew, for instance, Karin Raeck, he was first perplexed and then became not only angry but aggressive for suggesting his organisation should know of her work in Crete. I said that redemption is after all best done by means of artistic reflections. Karin Raeck is a Berlin artist who lived for ten years in Greece, mainly in Crete, and there created an Andartis sculpture out of the very same stones which were used by Greek resistance up in the Anoia plain to prevent German planes from landing. (see http://www.amazon.de/Andartis-Monument-f%C3%BCr-Frieden-Griech/dp/3894681969 )

When trying to explain this, he interrupted me. His intervention was quite abrupt and very crude. He simply said if she wants to inform them, she can call the organisation in Hamburg. I replied if they wish to bring about redemption between Germany and Greece, then it is up to them to inform themselves as to who else is devoted to this ongoing work of redemption between the two countries. After all one needs to be comprehensive in one's approach, in order to be just. Furthermore, it is impossible to claim nothing has been done so far on the German side to initiate a process of redemption. Karin Raeck lived in Crete for ten years.

Why did he cut off the discussion so abruptly? Presumably people like him feed on orthodox wishes and as a result they uphold an one sided image as if they are the only ones who are doing something substantial about this issue and nothing else counts. This narrow view of the importance of their own efforts serves the purpose to justify why they continue to make extreme demands. A compromise is ruled out.

Unfortunately their aggressive way denies any chance for reconciliation and stands in contradiction to the extent and depth of human pain connected with such a tragic event which happened during Second World War. For sure what German troops did in Greece during WWII is one of the most troubling spot in the German-Greek relationship. Alone the sheer happiness with which Greeks greeted the news that so many Germans were killed or taken prisoner in Russia as depicted in the film 'Little England' illustrates precisely during these Hellas Film Festivals through the media of film once more how repulsive Germans can be viewed.

My own little encounter in the foyer underlines still another aspect. The Greek side risks as well to have false friends on the German side while it shall be difficult to address quite another part of Germans not so radical but sidelined and silenced since they would adopt a far more differentiated approach to redemption work. Many examples have been set in what German foreign policy has achieved with France, Poland, Czech Republic and Israel, but not so with Greece. There many other efforts were made but which do not qualify for one or another reason to be a substantial part of a consistent redemption work bringing in NGOs to complement official actions and personal contacts between German and Greek politicians. The friendship between Kotzias and Steinmeier perhaps another illustration of how many leading figures have a common history without being necessarily able to counter various distortions of the German-Greek relationship propelled into public consciousness by a media not being really fair.

All this goes to show any foreign minister can attract all sorts of people. Most of them were elderly ones who believe to love Greece compassionately. Yet a second look can reveal that they use Greece as well to grind, so to speak, their own axe since they wish to hit Germany as if it is still a Fascist country. Among them distributing leaflets to save the olive trees in Greece was Hildegard Schram, former member of the Greens in the Berlin parliament and whose father was Rudolf Hess. To add the nostalgia on display during the opening of the Hellas Film Festival was also in this crowd to be noticed. It is a love for Greece of the sixties and seventies when many engaged themselves for the sake of Greece to free itself from the dictatorship of the Junta, but also when they were inspired by the poets and music of Theodorakis.

 

The discussion in the Babylon theatre

The entire discussion took place inside the Babylon theatre and lasted one hour and a half. It was sub-divided in two parts: refugees and the economic situation in Greece itself.

Interesting is his style of discussing things. He loves to contradict, in order to highlight nuances of understanding which do matter in the final end. For instance, when the journalist Ulrike Herrmann mentioned that he translated Habermas into Greek, she added that he must be able to speak excellent German. Here he corrected her: no, you need excellent knowledge of the Greek language. This reminds me what Suhrkamp asked my great uncle who was translator from Chinese into German, „he would presume that he speaks Chinese, but does he speak as well good German?“

1. The refugee question

• he knows the German foreign minister Steinmeier. They studied together under the same professor and even lived on the same street in Marburg.

• Kotzias had visited Steinmeier the previous day; he said nothing what was discussed even though asked, except the question what he would say today when at Hellas Filmfestival.

• Important was that Steinmeier rebuked publically the statement by the Austrian Minister for the Interior which stated Greece should be excluded temporarily from the Schengen area since it is a myth that the border between Greece and Turkey cannot be controlled. Steinmeier said nothing is resolved by excluding Greece.

• Kotzias does not believe creating tighter borders is the answer. He cited the example of the border the USA had drawn and fortified to keep out migrants from Mexico by building high fences with electronic devises to track them. This did not stop 41 million Mexicans coming into the USA, including 11 million without legal papers.

• He pointed out that he had warned already a long time ago in the Minister round of foreign ministers one has to look at the source of people fleeing, and that is the war in Syria. For what triggered according to him the real surge of people fleeing is the fact that those who had lived in UNO organised refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan had obtained per family about 350 Euros, but then UNO had no longer the money and families were given at best 34 Euros per month.

• He pointed out further one has to understand the different categories of refugees. Beside Syrians, there are the ones coming from Pakistan and Afghanistan to Turkey and with whom Turkey has treaties to regulate the wandering of people from one state to another. But this treaty has never been applied for otherwise Turkey would have send them back to Afghanistan and Pakistan.  And then there are the ones from Morocco and Algeria. They can fly to Turkey and go from Istanbul to the coast vis a vis Greece for about 55 Euros due to cheap flights are available. They take this route because Turkey does not impose any visa requirement.

• About Greek borders the government has been demanding more ships, equipments etc. so as to strengthen the Frontex ability to control the borders. When questioned by the journalist if Greece was registering all refugees, he affirmed, „yes, all“ and then added, that even the Bavarian police or the Austrian authorities had to admit that their border controls cannot be complete, so what to expect of Greece with a much larger sea border than what Austria and Bavaria have, and given the mountain ranges their border space is even more limited and easier to be controlled.

• He feels people must be realistic about the refugees who have a much richer imagination than whatever imagination he has to give a plausible answer. If you block their way, they will find another route to come to Europe. Just recently two or three ships on their way to the Italian coast was stopped by the coast guard. The ships had about 5000 refugees on board and were operated by a Mafia. Alone the money which was earned by the Mafia of having organised just this one attempt can provide food for thought about many other possibilities refugees will find in future to reach Europe.

 

2. The Greek economic situation

Asked about the economic situation which Greece has to face, he pointed out

• currently there is a paradox situation being created by the IMF wishing a hair cut (debt restructuring) but tough reforms, while the European institutions wish softer reforms but no hair cut. The extremes between 'no hair cut, bad reforms' and 'soft reforms, hair cut' has to be bridged.

• Right now the government is doing everything to fulfil what has been agreed upon last July even though some reforms he does not agree with since they are not reasonable

• Some positive signs have been forth coming e.g. industrial production was up in Nov. and Dec. 2015 with the figure for November showing a 3,3% increase. Also even if he does not care much the approval notches established by rating agencies, still Stanley and Poor has upgraded Greek bonds from a CCC- by two notches to a triple CCC+ status (see http://www.marketwatch.com/story/standard-poors-upgrades-greece-2015-07-21 ) which does indicate things have stabilized themselves.

• About the current strikes, he agrees with the protesters since the reforms mean really harsh measures which affect many people. Even his wife has suffered a huge cut in her pension. But with regards to the farmers, there are some which had never paid any taxes while the taxes to be imposed have to be measured and fair, that is reasonable.

• What about productivity and competitiveness which the European institutions demand of Greece, then it does not make sense to impose a VAT tax increase up to 23% on Greek islands when competitors in Turkey and elsewhere the hotels there and other tourist services pay merely 3 to 6%, while loans and costs for electricity etc. is much cheaper. That does not make any sense. (Note: Myconos, Rhodes, Santorini are over filled by tourists so that a tax may promote a much more sustainable development)

• Tourism reached in 2015 nearly 25 Million, the aim would be to have in the coming years 30 Million tourists.

• Greece has the potential of a very rich agricultural sector but what the previous Greek governments have done was a destructive policy by giving subsidies to farmers to cut down the olive trees and close down their farms.

• The Greek youth is one of the highest qualified ones and the young students he has in Piraeus they speak not only two, three but often seven if not ten languages and this includes very complex and different languages from Greek, German and Japanese which have in common use of dative. This youth could play a huge role in international services, tourism included.

• The IT sector in Greece is very advanced, the Informatic group at the University of Patras one of the three best in Europe. Unfortunately research money was cut and therefore there is needed a new cluster of IT companies similar to what happened in Cambridge, Massachusetts in the USA where de-industrialisation was replaced by companies benefiting from all the universities and colleges in the area to tap into human resources.

• Greece has many metals and should not extract and export them but follow a whole production line through in order to produce new technical material which Ferrari uses now for making car bodies by combining metals with plastic to create stronger but also lighter forms.

 

About political measures

• About Europe, he sees especially politicians who came into the European Union when Greece agreed to accept the entry of Eastern European states that they are not really qualifies to deal adequately with the complicated decision making process Europe entails.

• Politicians make the mistake to measure themselves against others who they dismiss as not a good speaker, or not well informed enough, but in reality they should measure up to the real problems Europe has to face.

• Europe is not served when politicians engage themselves to merely blame the other as if finding as a scape goat is the solution. He expressed the fear like so many other politicians that the refugee question can provoke the break-up of the European Union.

• Syriza has decided to implement all measures agreed upon now when the party is still popular rather than use this phase to do only beautiful things; it would be foolish to try to pass necessary but not easily accepted legislation when down in popularity. So definitely Tsipras and the Syriza collective have decided to go ahead.

• Important about the July 2015 agreement is that nothing was said Greece is not allowed to develop a parallel programme which would alleviate the pain and short comings of the poorest in society, and this they have been developing since July. He left it open whether or not the European institutions and/or the IMF are against this parallel programme.

• The future of Syriza depends on a majority, but a majority as Kotzias would correct repeatedly Ulrike Herrmann, who wanted to indicate that due to the pending pension reforms and the resistance or strikes in Greece against these measures, the stay in power is most precarious. Kotzias said one should note that the pollster agencies which have shown that after the election of Mitsotakis Nea Democratia is ahead by 3%, but then Kotzias reminded that these two pollster agencies were wrong in their prediction about the outcome of the referendum and they also did not predict that Syriza would win again the election in September 2015. Interestingly enough two other pollsters who were correct in the past released new figures, and see they note Syriza is 8% ahead.

• About Mitsotakis, what the German press does not mention is his involement in the SIEMENS scandal nor do they say anything about the Mitsotakis clan which has a complete grip on the Nea Democratia Party with Mitsotakis senior having played a huge but equally controversial role in the history of Greece. When he retired as young minister from the Papandreou senior government in 1967, his resignation provoked early elections with the prospects that the Socialist Papandreou would win the election. To prevent that a military coup was initiated and was called then by Andreas Papandreou 'democracy at gun point'.

• About the SIEMENS scandal, Kotzias mentions that Germany does not extradite the former SIEMENS manager who was active in Athens, but now lives in Bavaria. It says something how difficult it is to make people become responsible for what they have done e.g. bribing Greek politicians to accept lucrative contracts for SIEMENS in Greece.

Resume

He ended the discussion by saying he has many dreams but there are also those who dream a defeat of a left wing government in Greece.

Kotzias was a real charmer. The audience loved his self ironic way of explaining things even though he spoke often very long and therefore did not leave much time and space for the journalist to pose any real question. In the end he thanked everyone for having come last year as a tourist to Greece and he went to thank those who will come this year. At that point the journalist asked the audience who will travel to Greece this year, more than 4/5^th lifted their hands.

After Kotzias finished answering questions by TAZ journalist Ulrike Herrmann, a small crowd gathered around him to exchange a few words at personal level. I joined them and as he passed by I introduced myself as someone although German who was living in Athens. He asked why I am then in Berlin. Medical reasons! What kind? I replied: cancer. What kind? Prostate. He took my hand and said thirty years ago he was operated on as well. We both had understood something.

When he was leaving and walking through the foyer towards the exit, someone shouted something at him. He was wondering who was that since quite aggressive. No one of those surrounding him could brief him, not even the Greek ambassador to Germany. He seemed more lost than being present. He looked even like all heavy smokers do, namely the cheeks fallen in as if nearly sick. He seemed preoccupied or absent minded or both.

 

Conclusion

Stephan Doempke from World Heritage expressed afterwards disappointment that the foreign minister did not touch upon culture as one of the best vehicles to build bridges between Greece and Germany within Europe. It was even more odd to him that he spoke at the Hellas Film Festival and did not mention with one word what Greek culture could offer.

Some people believe this is not to be expected since most of the Syriza people come from a background (education but also tradition) which has little to do with culture. Moreover some of the intellectuals who are brilliant as professors such as Baltsas, now the Greek Minister of Culture, seems to provoke only negative responses due to his anti social attitude and which leads in turn to bad decisions e.g. replacing all the directors of festivals and to which many Greeks shrug merely their shoulder by which they say that is usually done when one new party comes into power.

Something else was missed out in this process of diplomacy for when a foreign minister talks at a Greek Film Festival in Berlin, it would be an opportunity to convey the wishes and dreams of the Greek people. Diplomacy should consist much more of bringing different people together, so as to enable mutual understanding and especially the need work of redemption between Greece and Germany. Such cultural diplomacy can reinforce the critical dialogue about what is after all not self understood neither in Greece nor in Germany, never mind in Europe.

Interestingly enough some of the films themselves do reveal the modern Greece with a youth willing to show independent from national boundaries what they perceive as being of importance in their lives.

Still, the question remains not only what can Europe do for Greece to get out of the current crisis, but to what extent has Greece become European and developed in a way which is compatible with the needs of 28 member states to work together.

Repeatedly Kotzias mentioned that Europe may well break apart if the refugee question is not resolved, and he added when painting this scenario, that it will not stop the refugees from coming to Europe.

Finally, he said that he accepted to be Minister of Foreign Affairs not to make a career or to earn extra money (his salary is laughable in comparison as to what a highly qualified civil servants earns in the German state administration), but because it is necessary to safeguard the Polis by doing something constructive.

As a politician he has to be an optimist.

 

Hatto Fischer

Berlin 23.1.2016

 

* Fürs Interview mit der TAZ in deutscher Sprache, siehe

Griechischer Außenminister über Flucht

„Eine Grenzschließung bringt nichts“

Flüchtlinge fänden ihre Wege, sagt Nikos Kotzias. Er fordert allerdings eine Visumspflicht für Marokkaner und Algerier in der Türkei.

http://www.taz.de/!5269578/

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